Obama actually gets specific on economic policy (finally...)

[Stang76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSuT5zN2SPI

[krosch]

Going to have to watch that later, been kinda in the dark on the news the past 2-3 weeks with my new store opening soon.

[ron2828]

Heyyy!! The site works. And the whole gang is back (not really). Had to create a new name because I forgot the old password.

I've read some of the old posts, and i must say that at times i sounded like a political hack (not all the time, but sometimes). So now that I'm wasting my life in grad school, I hope that will translate to better defenses of my positions.

Oh, and I also hope to tell some great dick jokes.

p.s. Is tsar still around?

[krosch]

Nah TSAR hasn't been around for awhile not sure if he is coming back. But welcome back to the site and we hope to repopulate it here again soon.

[Stang76]

Heyyy!! The site works. And the whole gang is back (not really). Had to create a new name because I forgot the old password.

I've read some of the old posts, and i must say that at times i sounded like a political hack (not all the time, but sometimes). So now that I'm wasting my life in grad school, I hope that will translate to better defenses of my positions.

Oh, and I also hope to tell some great dick jokes.

[ron2828]

That's only half true.

[Slyder Pilot]

That's only half true.

Yeah, Bingo was moved back to 7PM.

[Stang76]

That's only half true.

Yeah, Bingo was moved back to 7PM.

Damn, beat me to it.

[Xenolith]

Holy fuck-in-tash, they fixed the board.

[Stang76]

Depends on what you mean by "fixed"... they may have repaved the road but there's still nothing but tumbleweeds on it.

[krosch]

Some comments on his general ideas in this speech

He starts off the clip with some interesting things that are supposed to be opposed to each other.
“Markets vs. Democracy “

Ok so I guess we are supposed to vote on whether the markets go up and down? Or maybe we are supposed to let a democratically elected congress decide what stuff business can sell? I am not sure what this means but it scares me a little that he thinks somehow the market is against Democracy. So government should control the markets is my reading on this.

“Self Interest vs. Community”

Well I can see his point here but this assumes the worst of human nature that we are either all too greedy or too lazy to do anything other than something out of self interest. Also just because someone is done for self interest doesn’t always mean its detramential to the whole. I open a store to make money, I sell things people want. Now its self interest because I want to make money and me making money is bad for the community? Not sure if that is what he is getting at but it seems to be suggested that we can’t trust people the government needs to force us to be honest.

“Concentration of wealth vs. Transparent and wealth for all”

i.e. let’s tax people who do well more and let the government decide how that money can be better used. To some extent always needed but in general I wonder how many people think the government can spend THEIR money better they can. Of course much of this maybe he people thinking well just tax people who make more money than I do. But its hard to say.

“Government Not to stifle but to advance, “

what does that mean? Government Planning the economy? How does one regulate without stifling? It’s a tough balance regulation is meant to stifle because it makes things safer if done correctly. It’s a balancing act that Sen. Obama simply states very quickly without explanation.



Well being is when all people do better so everyone is better.

Umm what does this mean? The Doctor who went to school for 10 years should get the same reward as the guy who dropped out of high school and works 20 hours a week at the gas station and lives with his parents? Likely not that extreme but he doesn’t define his stance other than generally.

“How have we lost shared prosperity? Special interests? Market that favors wall street over main street? “

Doesn’t give any real examples of how markets favored Wall Street except that somehow the Sub Prime mess was designed to kill main street and make cash for Wall Street. Not sure how people with bad credit buying homes is better for Wall Street than Main street. But Wall Street is a nice demon to blame I guess.

“Quotes Governments regulation supposedly encouraged economic growth. “

Yep he quotes acts passed in the great depression as being regulation that caused economic expansion. No mention of the building projects it was obviously the government regulation.

“Deregulation of Telecommunications caused competitors but massive over investment?
Deregulation of Power Companies caused Enron which caused people to distrust the markets? “

Ok so one big case of fraud scared investors from investing blindly a bit more… That’s a good thing, people shouldn’t think they can just toss money into stocks with no risk. That is a huge problem I think.

“Sub Prime mortgage lenders went wrong. Regulators should have stepped in. “

The thing most people don’t mention is that some of us didn’t get sub prime loans. I had a chance to buy a duplex in Jan. 07 but decided not to because of sub prime offer. Some people decided to go ahead and do it. I think its B.S. that the government take that choice from me. If I decided I had a tenet and I could afford the payments. Why not let me? Most people even sub prime ones don’t get foreclosed on.

So the government should tell me no your too poor or credit unworthy for a loan. Take the choice away because some people made dumb mistakes and the government obviously knows better. That’s B.S.

“We don’t have to choose between an oppressive government and a free for all market? “

Yes there is a middle ground, but any choice is a move in one direction or the other.

“Somehow thinks he can achieve an economy that doesn’t go through boom and bust. “

Ha obviously didn’t pay attention in Econ 101 (I didn’t take it either)

“People shouldn’t be forced to stick a terms that were predatory or unfair? What does that mean? “

Perhaps if I had signed that bad loan it’s the banks fault for giving it to me? Not my own so I can get free help to make up for my mistake because I am too stupid to do it on my own.

“Lenders should reduce principal (i.e. forgive parts of the loan and give money away)”

Alright so the bank should what? Decrease interest paid to savings accounts or bonds from investors to pay for this?

“Says details should be debated and decided in public is his excuse for not offering details. “

Nice way to get out of giving anyone anything concrete to debate before the election. Just vote for me we’ll take care of it…

“Requirements for liquidity and capital assets. Basically government mandates on who should be able to get money. “

Well if this was the case I would not be a home owner now. I wish Senator Obama wouldn’t try to oppress my ability to get a loan and start to build a good life for myself. Just to protect those that make bad choices (I have made a few myself) but without them I would not be where I am today. I had crap for extra capital when I got my loan and in fact got into more debt refiniancing my car and dumping thousands to fix my place so the closing would happen.

“Streamlining goverment oversight?”

Interesting idea but how

And how is this different than the ill proposed reorganization of Homeland security that Obama himself attacked before. (I agree with him in principal. it was maybe slightly better long term but short term it was leaving holes short term. I don’t have an exact quote from the senator on this but he was a critic of the reorganization.)

“America’s economy is the greatest economy the world has ever known creating wealth for Americans and making a better life for them.”

But as stated above he wants to massively change how it works….

[Xenolith]

Free market is great if you have unlimited resources. We are on the verge of running low on key resources. That is where regulation comes in, to prevent greed from causing a catastrophe. This is why this country needs a change in direction. A more socialized government is better at managing resources.

I am going to be a one issue voter this time around. I am only going to vote for the person that has the best vision for managing our resources properly so we can continue to grow. The free market only sees a few years into the future. Letting the free market exclusively manage our resources, and this country will burn out.

[krosch]

I disagree, I think a managed Free Market is the best solution. Of course a more Free market tends to have more extreme ups and downs. But goverment Regulation should be more about punishing those that break the rules, ensuring a fair market place rather than impeding industry with processes that massively slow down the work.

Put in an inspection regiment, punish those that screw up hard so the industry polices itself to avoid the fines. Then inspect throughully rather than add tons of rules that slow everything down and kill the profit margin forcing prices to go up massively or the product quality/volume to go down.

[theprophet0]

The republican domestic policy of trickle up economics and deficit spending of the past 27 years is alot worse than any democrat has to offer. The proof is in the pudding.

[Xenolith]

Actually the Republican domestic policy has been fantabulous for corporations. Corporations have been kicking butt. The rest of us aren't doing so great. That is the fundamental problem. Government is supposed to represent the people, not corporations. The government is supposed to be a check on the corporate world, and the government is not fulfilling that responsibility. All a corporation cares about is stockholders. If that means being wasteful, or damaging the environment, then so be it.

Remember, the root word in conservative, is conserve. The term conservative, in the political sense, originally meant small efficient government, being frugal, and not wasting and recycling our resources. That term has been bastardized by modern conservatives. Modern conservatives are actually doing the exact opposite of what the name means. So it is up to liberals to be the true conservatives. Very frustrating.

[krosch]

Yep because having the highest per capita income in the world sucks. Having a poor population that makes on average more than a European sucks. Having one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world blows. (you want to have 19% try France).

How exactly by any standard of comparison to the rest of the world are we doing so badly?

Chances to make it are more numerous then perhaps ever. That’s why a welfare raised kid like me has been able to become a landlord and a business owner by 27. Because of evil corporations taking all of our wealth I bet.

Come on guys, you need to wake up and realize our unemployment rate is very close to historic lows, income is up, and America is doing very good even in this dip we are in now. It might be a recession but even in this recession it’s much better than any time in the Carter years, it’s massively better than the JFK or Roosevelt Years. What downfall has America Taken in the last 27 years?

You need to quit whining and look at the opportunity created for anyone who actually goes out to grab it. No it’s not perfect and it will never be perfect. Because if there is one thing the government is better at than "giving evil corporations ultimate power" It’s completely handicapping anyone like me who wants to make it my own way.

When the government comes to step on the "rich" they aren't going to step on Bill Gates. He has the resources and money to survive. They are going to step on the throats of people like me who are just getting started in creating our own self sustainable income.

Let's take one example

If Obama's stupid idea for having capital requirements to get a mortgage. I wouldn't own my duplex right now (I refinanced my car and emptied my checking account to make the down payment.) Which left me with "no capital to meet a yet to be defined requirement". Obama's idea is pretty simple the mortgage crisis could have been prevented by simply allowing the government to choose who can get a loan based on someone's good idea of what you need to get a loan.

Sure many of these sub prime borrowers are getting into trouble, Obama's solution seems to be simply well they don't deserve a home in the first place. Can't get foreclosed on if you can't buy one now can you? What he fails to consider it seems is that most people aren't getting foreclosed on, even sub prime ones. Most people even in this "crisis" planned properly or didn't hit some unexpected bump when cash was tight.

Now I am not saying we shouldn't considering help sub prime borrowers out of their stupid mistake. If you take out an $80,000+ loan even if the loan is predatory it’s more your fault than the loan shark. I had a chance at such a variable interest rate loan and decided to pass up a property I really wanted. But I waited because the high payment made me a bit nervous (and it could have gone up).

So what did I do? I backed away from the high pressure sales pitch moved into a friend’s basement and continued to fix my credit and save up money for another 6 months. It still might have been too early but I found a great deal on a property and now I am a land owner and landlord.

But of course this is impossible, I grew up on welfare, I make less than $25,000 a year, and my job is seasonal. There is no opportunity for me out there! I should just sit back and whine about my shitty situation. No I read books, I educated myself and I made a move when I was ready. A chance that I have because of American Economic opportunity.

Now I have a tenet that pays most of my building bills with his rent, and recently got a roommate in my apartment (working on the road a lot right now.) so essentially all of my living costs (including satellite, high speed internet and phone) are paid for by my renters. Adding over $8,000 a year to my income.

Something that under Obama's plan to put his boot on my throat so I can't get anywhere plan. Which I know is a plan to save the masses from themselves because obviously low income people like myself are far too stupid to make our own choices or make it on our own.

[Xenolith]

I didn't read your post, too long.

[krosch]

Then Obama's I will give you hope speeches are perfect for your interest level. Short to the point and filled with nothing resembling information on his stances or policy directions.

It makes a lot of sense now.

Obama is starting to get a bit more detail oriented now with Clinton and Mccain pushing him. I hope that doesn't scare you off, but hey if you get overloaded just find a utube video of Obama from early in the campaign.

[Xenolith]

We aren't making political speeches here, learn to be concise and to the point. Forums are conversational, not long winded rants. If you want to ramble, get a blog.

[krosch]

See now we are getting somewhere, small petty insults. I thought you went to college and learned how to read. I repeat my point if you like 10 second sound bytes that have no information Obama is your candidate.

[krosch]

It has two parts to it, the first part is just slightly longer than your post about the econ of the last 27 years.

Then the second part is an exact detailed example of How Obama's Plan would put his boot on my throat keeping me lower class rather than starting to build up income/wealth to support myself. By refusing to allow me in the situation I was in last year to buy a home which I am now renting half of and covering most of my bills. But Obama's plan assumes I am too stupid to take care of myself and would get foreclosed on so I shouldn't be allowed to get a loan. Because the bank is "preying" on me.